View Full Version : marradona or pele?
generaljimmy
31-03-2006, 02:41 PM
this argument seems to have kicked off elsewhere, and i already know my answer, but i think ppl should try and put their point of view aocrss. this is, after all, one of the greatest and most regularly brought up debates in football.
so come on who is it?
and no mention of puskas, di stefano or garrincha yet please.
Kieran
31-03-2006, 03:18 PM
roger palmer 8)
No but out of those two definately Maradona
mooney
31-03-2006, 03:25 PM
To be honest, I'm not going to say either because I was too young to really appreciate any of their footballing prowess.
Pele was way before my time and - although I was alive in Spain 82 and Mexico 86 - i dont recall any of MAradoona. I have obviously seen the clips of MAradonna's "hand of god" and the other "wonder" goal scored against England, but a few clips here and there dont give me enough information (I could see a few clips of Didier Drogba scoring goals but it wouldnt be a true refelction) to give a valid vote.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to sit on the fence.
Maybe in 20 years time I will be able to put my point across in the great debate over who was better: Drogba or Heskey. Until then, my mouth is firmly shut.
boltzy
31-03-2006, 03:51 PM
pele - no question.
generaljimmy
31-03-2006, 03:53 PM
oh but it is, and one that once a few people have thron their oar in, i will answer.
Dom Chung
31-03-2006, 03:59 PM
pele was obviously amazing and well ahead of his time but always played in great teams.
Maradona on the other hand carried the teams he played in.
Nice one Mooney, thanks for that.
Pele was and is, the greatest player the world has seen.
In the best international side ever, he was head and shoulders above them all, the star of the side.
generaljimmy
31-03-2006, 04:10 PM
In the best international side ever, he was head and shoulders above them all, the star of the side.
starnge how ud be hard pushed to get a brazilian to agree with you there. they'd probably say pele was the best from the 70 side, but merely the jewel in a very hefty crown. Not many of them would even hold pele as their greatest all time player
pele was obviously amazing and well ahead of his time but always played in great teams.
Maradona on the other hand carried the teams he played in.
That's a common mistake people make, saying Pele played in great teams doesn't tell the full story.
Which is it easier to be ? Outstanding in a team of top quality players, or outstanding in a team of average players ?
You could also bring into the equation the fact that Maradona was on performance enhancing drugs for pretty much the whole of his career, but that doesn't detract from his 'skill' level.
In the best international side ever, he was head and shoulders above them all, the star of the side.
starnge how ud be hard pushed to get a brazilian to agree with you there. they'd probably say pele was the best from the 70 side, but merely the jewel in a very hefty crown. Not many of them would even hold pele as their greatest all time player
How many have you asked ?
Dom Chung
31-03-2006, 04:16 PM
pele was obviously amazing and well ahead of his time but always played in great teams.
Maradona on the other hand carried the teams he played in.
That's a common mistake people make, saying Pele played in great teams doesn't tell the full story.
Which is it easier to be ? Outstanding in a team of top quality players, or outstanding in a team of average players ?
.
True, but he won the world cup surrounded by average players.
generaljimmy
31-03-2006, 04:19 PM
loads.
its well hewn knowledge that the majority of brazil loves garrincha more than they do pele, the fat that when the two played together it was often garrincha who was the one who created more chances, and was more trouble to the opposition. Pele was one of the most amazingingly fantastic players to evre come out fo the world, but the fact that its pretty much set in stone that hes the greatest player ever doesnt mean that its right.
and if u think im talking bolloocks read alex bellios' book about brazilain football culture, or any one of the numerous magazines that always dote on the country which is centre of the footballing universe.
mooney
31-03-2006, 04:23 PM
Nice one Mooney, thanks for that.
Its Ok mate, anytime you want an opinion that doesnt count, come to me
Doug Mercy
31-03-2006, 04:31 PM
the real answer mooney, as you well know, is super mickey bridges, followed closely by Karl Hawley and mebbes chuck Matt Jansen in there too. None of these South American pansies!
Kieran
31-03-2006, 04:31 PM
Pele wouldn't make my top ten players.
loads.
its well hewn knowledge that the majority of brazil loves garrincha more than they do pele
That doesn't mean he's the better player, it means he was more popular.
The reasons for that aren't all footballing. But then you know that.
and if u think im talking bolloocks read alex bellios' book about brazilain football culture, or any one of the numerous magazines that always dote on the country which is centre of the footballing universe.
I don't think you're talking bollocks, I know what you're talking about, I've read a lot of the same stuff, I've also read stuff that gives the reasons - Garrincha being from a poor background and staying there, a man of the people that kind of thing, Pele turning himself into a businessman, politician and becoming one of the establishment and so on.
The Downtown Hustler
31-03-2006, 04:50 PM
Pele wouldn't make my top ten players.
Controversial, dude > enlighten the masses with your 10 best .
Coakley
31-03-2006, 04:55 PM
You could also bring into the equation the fact that Maradona was on performance enhancing ***** for pretty much the whole of his career
What and Pele wasn't!?
:lol:
http://www.alynappies.com/images/pele.jpg
....as the kids round our way would put it "END OFI".
I think we have a winner
Diego Armando
http://www.thesonsofscotland.co.uk/images/diego%20maradona/maradona5.jpg
You could also bring into the equation the fact that Maradona was on performance enhancing ***** for pretty much the whole of his career
What and Pele wasn't!?
....as the kids round our way would put it "END OFI".
Well no, he wasn't. The kids round your way are obviously a bit thick aren't they ?
Pele wouldn't make my top ten players.
Controversial, dude > enlighten the masses with your 10 best .
It's not controversial, it's just nonsense.
generaljimmy
31-03-2006, 05:04 PM
That doesn't mean he's the better player, it means he was more popular.
The reasons for that aren't all footballing. But then you know that.
Completely right there mate, garrincha is lauded more for the fact that he was more Brazilian than pele, I’ll give you that. I don’t think garrincha is a better player than him, but it leads well into my argument about the reasons why I think pele is not as good as diego. Just as the garrincha belief is based on him being more suitable towards the romanticisms of Brazilians and their obsession with fallability, its basically a trademark that Pele is the greatest player of all time. He's as much a triumph of marketing as he is of skill (FIFA want him as the greatest ever, not someone like Puskas or di Steafno who fled and rebuked politically oppressive regimes, not a drug taker or alcoholic gambler like marradonna or garrincha, and not a wondrous player who threw too many tantrums and believed in beauty above achdivement, Cruyff), and he never showed himself on the greatest stage consistently.
True, but he won the world cup surrounded by average players.
He did more than win the world cup surrounded by average players, he won serie a with napoli with a distinctly average side thus winning the greatest cup in the world and also the greatest league title (which was definitely true at the time when la liga was in a state of decline and we were in the post heysel, pre-premiership days). He was a talisman for club and country, and whilst he didn’t quite fit in at barca, was a horrendous role model and cheated, he simply did some of the most amazing things ever seen with a football. I mean, his second goal against England, it couldn’t have happened arguably without the first, but has anyone ever done anything so magical on that stage? I mean pele tried, but he never pulled it off.
pele won 2 world cups as the focal point of a ludicrously talented team. These world cups were in conditions that suited to South American tactics and style of play (chile 62 and mexico 70) and the other one, he wasn't the focal point of the team. He was the young starlet who played really well, excited the world, but was overshadowed by other team members. and he wasted his club career scoring for fun in the gash that is the Brazilian league with santos and them doing mls, his only lasting mark on europe - where all the best football has always been played - was those magical moments in sweden 58. And he wasn’t the star of that world cup either, Just Fontaine of France scored 14 goals and set the tournament alight, but because france weren’t as good as Brazil he isn’t remembered as being the main genius of the tournament. And probably cos he did fuck all else after that, unlike our Brazilian here. And then he was a pile of shit in 66, admittedly a heavily fouled one. Pele is easily one of the greatest players of all time, quite possibly the greatest, but his reluctance to confirm his legend on the stage he deserved results in him not being able to be crowned as better than marradona, at least in my opinion anyway. Simply because maradona has the edge in this element.
and the whole substances thing, have u ever tried to play football on coke? i don’t think it can be classed as improving your game, diego certainly didn’t think it did, but he was rightfully banned and removed from the world cup because of the example it was setting, you cant have the greatest player in the world snorting beak and let him get away with it.
At the end of the day, the whole thing is all an opinion and its perfectly laudable to say that one of cryuff, di stafano, puskas, marradona, pele or garrincha was the greatest player of all time, they all have a legitimate claim. It just angers me when ppl claim that pele was the greatest bar none, because its this 'fact' which seeks to obliterate all the other players who deserve a piece of that crown. Pele was extremely lucky in that he had some of the finest players around him, shit, if I’d played up front with garrinicha or jairzinho on the wings beside me id probably have scored the odd goal or two. I think maradona is better than pele, that’s my opinion, but I don’t expect everyone else to hold it, even though they should! I just like attacking the populist marketing myth as pele the greatest genius of our times because I hate its dominance over the world’s thinking on footballing matters.
generaljimmy
31-03-2006, 05:04 PM
Pele wouldn't make my top ten players.
Controversial, dude > enlighten the masses with your 10 best .
It's not controversial, it's just nonsense.
agreed, how on earth ahve you found ten players better than pele?
Dom Chung
31-03-2006, 05:19 PM
fucking hell Jimmy you don't half go on!
generaljimmy
31-03-2006, 05:21 PM
sorry :oops:
Dom Chung
31-03-2006, 05:38 PM
:D joking mate!
Magik
31-03-2006, 06:38 PM
Fucking Journalists. :lol: Odd thing is its very intresting debate.Most enjoyable thread so far this year. 8)
BillAlcatraz
31-03-2006, 07:07 PM
ronnie rosenthal
end of
gavin
31-03-2006, 07:17 PM
ronnie rosenthal
ronnie's open goal miss was well better than any of pele's
FunkedUp
31-03-2006, 07:34 PM
carlton palmer
the teapot gnome
31-03-2006, 09:00 PM
Jason (Pineapple on his head ) Lee
Spandex Man
31-03-2006, 10:23 PM
Pele wouldn't make my top ten players.
Kieran, not being rude, but you are such a faggot, your opinion does not count in footballing matters. Its ALMOST as bad as Damo trying to have an opinion football.
A few points
1. No-one who throws throws the ball into our net in such a shit arsed cheating scumbag manner deserves the accolade greatest footballer. I reckon if we had watched football then we wouldn't be having this argument. Imagine Maradona scoring with a handball against us in France 98? People have short memories
2. Pele scored over 1200 goals in his career. Not enough in itself but compare that to any other professional footballer
3. Pele was in Escape to Victory. Enough on its own
Magik
01-04-2006, 02:01 PM
Imagine Maradona scoring with a handball against us in France 98? People have short memories
Didnt need to..... England still lost without him.. :lol:
and regarding Pele being Escape to Victory.Indeed very good point!
"Hatch gives me the ball here, I do this, this, this, this, goal"
http://www.escapetovictory.spodrum.co.uk/images/photoalbum/119.jpg
Which is weird because hatch wasnt the goalie at that stage. :?
the teapot gnome
01-04-2006, 02:28 PM
Pele wouldn't make my top ten players.
Anyone who'd say that is either a tool or knows f##k all about football
absolutemoron
01-04-2006, 05:57 PM
Kieran is a fan of Oldham and Wales. You can't expect him to have any rational football knowledge.
Magik
01-04-2006, 07:03 PM
Im Welsh.And i know a little bit about Football. :)
the teapot gnome
01-04-2006, 07:19 PM
Im Welsh.And i know a little bit about Football. :)
Only a little bit though eh Dave :wink:
Barrington
02-04-2006, 03:55 AM
Pele, Diego, Emile Heskey.
In reverse order of greatness.
Kieran
02-04-2006, 05:26 PM
Kieran is a fan of Oldham and Wales. You can't expect him to have any rational football knowledge.you're all so easy to wind up, sad bast.ards!! :lol:
..oh and I'm not Welsh :roll:
the quoon
02-04-2006, 07:13 PM
impossible to choose a worlds greatest footballer ever.
i bet pele was shite at left back.
mooney
03-04-2006, 03:25 PM
impossible to choose a worlds greatest footballer ever.
I believe that I have only done this on a few occasions, but I agree with Quoon-head on this point. Too many factors to take into account.
Doug Mercy
03-04-2006, 03:34 PM
Changed my mind after weekend: Chris Billy
mooney
03-04-2006, 04:24 PM
Changed my mind after weekend: Chris Billy
Personally, for me, it was all about Lumby. Homer also had a good game while he was on the pitch.
Well done to the comedy answer chaps, proper funny.
At the end of the day, the whole thing is all an opinion and its perfectly laudable to say that one of cryuff, di stafano, puskas, marradona, pele or garrincha was the greatest player of all time.
I agree, my *favourite* player was Cruijff, funny enough, he was my favourite manager too :)
The substances thing regarding Maradona wasn't referring to gear, it was referring to steroids, he was initially started on them without his knowledge as a 14 year old, but carried on taking them, pretty much throughout his career (give or take a few spells while injured and so on). You're aware he had a prosthetic penis with a container of urine in to evade drugs tests ?
The drugs tests he failed in 91 and 94 weren't just for gear, they were for a combination of stimulants, steroids and masking agents.
Now for me, Ben Johnson *was* the fastest man on earth, irrespective of what he'd taken, he'd still actually run the race himself, so it's not enough to disregard Maradona or condemn him as a "manufactured" footballer, but it should be borne in mind.
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